The Narrow Path

I have been pondering about the narrow path. In the New Testament, Jesus says that the path to Heaven is narrow. Traditionally, people have most interpreted that is following one set of extremely strict rules, and that all deviants would go to Hell (or at least not reach Heaven and get eternal life). However, it seems awfully cruel to me. Why would God exclude so many people from His presence? Is he not supposed to be a God of Love, and not the God of Discrimination?

I’ve pondered this for a while, and at one time, came to believe that there were many many narrow winding paths which led to the same destination in the end. That didn’t seem quite right either, so at last, I have come to a conclusion. Acceptance and love for others, no matter how much they deviate from your set of beliefs, is the only way to Heaven. We find it hard to love and accept those who are different from us. In fact, many of us (including myself) do not quite manage it. Since it is so difficult, then is it not the narrow path? If we can all practise acceptance and love, then we won’t have to wait until we are dead to get to Heaven. If you truly love someone, you try your utmost not to hurt them. If we all care about one another to that level, then we will have created Heaven on earth. And that, my friends, is a wonderful thought.

The Great YouTube Debate 14 (Sporking!)

I just have to spork Ego. He’s begging for it. You’ve called me a coward twice, Ego. I’m not letting you off without mocking you to Hell and back. I’m in bold.

 

LOL. your rule. not my rule.. And does that make it any less true? cutting and pasting isn’t a problem only those that don’t like what is pasted contradicts what they say seems to be the biggest problem I have come across. Tut tut; excuses, excuses, Ego. You’re copying and pasting because you cannot write an argument which makes sense. But your people yeah.. they will agree with that. but there are many that see it like I do.. pasting something doesn’t mean someone is losing a debate.. Nope, pasting something means you’re plagiarizing someone’s work. so I guess you better never past anything from scientific america.. Oh, you won’t catching me pasting anything in such huge amounts. I might quote one or two phrases to support my points and put proper citations, but entire passages from the Bible? Ego, do you think you can get God to argue for you? or any statements a scientist who supports evoltuion.. Scientists, Ego, do not support ‘evoltuion’, whatever that is, but they do support evolution. better not quote them.. will you give that same treatment to your friends. I wonder. My friends would never be foolish enough to copy and paste huge chunks of text.
 
(Did I say that Jesus’ teachings don’t mean anything? I most certainly did not. Of course, considering Ego’s level of English language, it’s easy for him to misinterpret things.)
 
My reply:
 
Lol Is this your favourite word, by the way? Figures. It’s got three letters and two of them are repeated. Seems like it’s the only type of word you can spell correctly. this went way over your head. your comparison of Mohammads repentance to Jesus is watering down what Jesus ment by repentance.. that is my point.. comparing similiar things in different faiths. waters down the message presented in Scripture. but i’m not surprise. Hey, does anyone know where I can get a nonsense translator? I can’t seem to understand what Ego’s saying. Does comparing similar beliefs water down said beliefs?
 
Repentance means ‘turn away from sin and back to the laws of God’. Very simple. The laws of God are the Ten Commandments and the commandment to love one another. I don’t quote the Bible when I know the idea off the top of my head. Of course, given your very twisted understanding of Christ’s teachings, I’m sure you have a different understanding of the word ‘repentance’, don’t you, Ego?
 
My reply:
no that isn’t what repetance means in theology. LOL.. like I said it go’s to show you.. that your lack of theological training shows.
 
1) to change one’s mind, i.e. to repent Okay. Repent, Ego. Change your mind and turn to the rational side!
 
2) to change one’s mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one’s past sins Yes, Ego. Change your mind for the better and become rational! Well, that might be a bit too much to ask…
 
That’s what repentance means. When people are called to repent it’s not to follow the ten commandments it’s not a works based faith it is recognizing you are a sinner and need of a Holy God in it’s truest sense.. LOL.. and it appears you might not have done this.
 
You said:
You’re now speaking for the millions of Christians on earth? You really are egotistical, aren’t you?
 
My reply:
What a oxymoronic statement. In Debate #12, you said that Christians are shaking their head at me.. and that gives the appearance that 100’s of christians LOL.. that would be your definition of Christian which I would argue isn’t the biblical christians if you are the representation of that.. so don’t call me egotitical when you yourself said Christians are shaking their heads at me.. LOL All right, let’s do a poll and see how many people support you. You do realize that the reason why so many people are mocking the Creation Museum, atheist, Christian, Jew and Muslim alike, is because they do believe it is utterly ridiculous?

 
You said:
Qur’an says a lot of things. People interpret it as a Book of Symbols. For your information, even devout Muslims obeyed Mohammed’s first command to respect the people of the book. Usama ibn Munqidh thought that the Christians were a barbaric lot, but he still had Christian friends.
 
My reply:
Yeah.. cowards way out.. just say people interpet the Quran as a book of symbols like yourself..Um, Islamic theologians interpret it as a book of symbols. You think they’re taking the easy way out then? when someone has shown you that you are in error for saying or leading people to think that Mohammad consider Christians to be friends.. that is far from the history of Mohammads life.. LOL Do you know anything about Mohammed’s life apart from the fact that he recited the Qur’an and had many wives?
 
You said:
Former’ Muslim, meaning he turned against Islam and therefore would be biased against Islam.
 
My reply:
LOL.. the issue isn’t being bias.. it’s going to a better source of someone who knows more about the faith then yourself who lived in the country, grew up a Muslim, knows more about the context of the Quran then yourself.. no different then going to one of your bias Evolutionary scientist who are bias against supernaturalism.. LOL.. Actually, bias is always an issue. Historians teach you to be careful of sources with potential bias.
 
You said:
Muslims and Jews are persecuted too. Don’t think that Christians are special. As for martyrs like Eulogius, they wanted to die. One does not stand in a Muslim city, call Mohammed a devil-worshipper in public, do it multiple times after multiple warnings, and expect to live.
 
My reply:
Gave no examples at all.. LOL I don’t care for lip service.
Jews are persecuted by Muslims still to this day.. And Muslims are persecuted by Jews to this day. Palestine, hello? And then there are the Christians who persecute Jews, and the Christians who persecute Muslims… I can go on and on, but it just makes me depressed. anyone can follow the things going on in Jerusalem.. and Muslims.. yeah.. give an example. because people that talk negative about Islam are speaking against the Terrorism.. Terrorism is the result of said persecution. and that isn’t persecuation dear.. Oxymoronic; it’s obvious you hate me.  LOL Muslims are not being persecuted like the Apostles were for following Jesus.. Of course not; the Romans had not invented electrocution yet. or modern day Christians which I gave already an example of people I know who experienced this in this century.. go read
 
Fox’s Book of Martyrs again.. it documents Christian persecution for following Jesus.. that is what we are talking about.. go to http://www.persecution.org/suffering/index.php that talks about modern day persecution. and in America.. LOL. prayer is taken out of schools when this nation was founded on Christian priciples.. where Bible were read in school as a text.. we don’t get the same treatment in america as other faiths do.. I live here and I know that first hand… America being the whole world, right?
 
You said:
And in the rest of the world, Muslims are discriminated against.
 
My reply:
Nothing to back this at all.. no reference to what type of discrimination.. u mentioned what the American Soldiers did.. but that is it… the rest of the world show they are being persecuted for following Mohammad. showing me Muslims dying for being Muslims.. All right, at airports, Muslims are being selected for random security checks. Their TVs are dismantled and quarantined because people think there are bombs in them. People call them names like ‘towelheads’ and draw insulting cartoons of their prophet. Westerners take their land and don’t give a damn if they live in poverty in refugee camps. Abu Ghraib. The ‘terrorists’ in Palestine who are fighting for their brethren. The ‘terrorists’ who are fighting U.S. convoys in Iraq. In his own twisted way, Osama bin Laden and his ilk are martyrs. Misguided, yes, but they believe they are working/dying for a just cause. You know, if he hadn’t decided to take this path, Osama would have been very rich and living in luxury. Now, he’s hiding somewhere in a cave, probably falling ill, and with very little except a position as a figurehead for the Mujahideen and inspiring them to be martyrs for Islam.
 
You said:
So the Good Samaritan won’t get to Heaven because he doesn’t believe in the right thing? So why did Jesus tell the parable?
 
My reply:
Totally ignored what I said after… LOL.. it debunks your claim that actions get a person into heaven.. no.. having faith in Jesus as the theif on the cross next to Jesus was told he was going to Paradise because of his faith in Jesus.. Hey, the Good Samaritan never professes his faith in Jesus.
 
Are you kidding me.. why did Jesus tell the parable? Why ask me.. like you really care? If you don’t recall, the purpose of the parable was loving your neighbor, showing mercy, etc.. Uh huh…I made that point last time; that is the way to Heaven. You said no way. Jesus told who He was speaking to directly, to go and do likewise. Jesus was teaching the Lawyer that right thinking isn’t the only thing because the Lawyer had to also put that into practice.. Jesus was speaking to a Jew.. so that is what the Jewish Lawyer would have understood.. practice what you preach. But if a person is truely saved.. Fruit would accompany that.. you seem to leave off the rest of the NT. A person doesn’t get into heaven by being good.. in fact let me mentioned another parable that proves that. The parable of the Rich Young Man.. in that parable.. the man thought he was living right by keeping the commandments. but Jesus made it clear.. Mark chapter 10:17.. read it.. anyone who reads that would see that it’s not about how good you are, or the commandments if you keep them..
because if you break one commandment you are guilty of breaking all of them..
 
You said:
Nowhere does it say ‘dogmatic unconditional belief in everything written in the Bible’.
 
My reply:
Yes it does I already gave it.. but you simple explained it away thru your improvising of the text.. You mean you quoted Paul, and not Christ. Jesus told Satan that man lives on every word that comes out of the mouth of God. Any unbiased theologian who have studied the text will tell you that everywhere God speaks, and the people God used you pay attention to what is said. From Moses to the Apostle John, from Genesis to Revelations.. The word of God, not the word of the Bible. I don’t believe that every word in the Bible is the word of God.
 
You obviously need an example.. John wrote John 3:16 quoting what Jesus said.. that He is the only way to Heaven.. that is the Word of God, and if you deny that u are denying how to get to heaven. I suggest you study good theology. Jesus’ way is the only way to Heaven. Fanatical discriminating ways are not.
 
Matthew 4:4
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’ ” Already answered.
 
Christians that practice orthodoxy.. Which version? Lutheran? Coptic? Eastern Orthodox? Russian Orthodox? Catholic Orthodox? Syriac Orthodox? Armenian Orthodox? You know, they’re all different. know what I’m talking about.. the bible records things Satan says.. but that isn’t what we are talking about.. but every word that leads people to the God of the Bible, to Jesus or Salvation.. etc.. and if you really knew that, you wouldn’t be confused. Like you said, you grew up as a Chrsitain well, you obviously demonstrate otherwise. I’m kind to others (unless they insult me the way you did) and embrace people of all religions as long as they are good people. That’s a pretty Christian thing to do. I’m following the commandment ‘love your neighbour’. 

 
You said:
I have spoken to a great number of Christians in my time, and I’ve met two, including you, who seem to think that the Bible must be believed unconditionally, contrary to all rational thinking and scientific evidence. Even our local bishop says that evolution makes more sense that creationism. This shows that your brand of ‘Christianity’ reflects only the attitude of a small minority of Christians in the world, and many others do not agree with you, and even despise your views. Indeed, they are shaking their heads at your dogmatic ways.
My reply:
Great number of christians.. wow.. how many would that be? Your only 19.. The age thing again. Ego, try something else; it’s getting old. I talk a lot and to a lot of people, and I read a lot, unlike you. so yeah.. how many would that be? Hundreds. There are a lot of interesting comments made by Christians about the Creation Museum. Here is what I think about secular humanist rational thinking and scientific evidence (which creationist scientist with the same PH’D would argue differently)
 
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, Since I believe in Jesus, this is moot. but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. It seems to me that this is how someone else feels about rational thinking and scientific evidence. I’m sure Ego wasn’t one of the writers of the Bible.19For it is written: In which part of the Bible?
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; Apparently, Ego, you were one of those ‘wise’.
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Banging their heads in frustration at the stupidity of people like this person who I am sporking. Where is the philosopher of this age? Hiding in an underground bunker waiting for natural selection to do away with said stupidity.  Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? According to Ego, yes. 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, Indeed, many Christians like Ego do not seem to know God, and they think they are wise when they are indeed fools. God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached Like the foolishness of what this little girl preaches, according to Ego. to save those who believe.
 
And the majority argument is a fallcy.. And the majority of Ego’s argument is…I’ll leave you to fill in the space with the word of your choice. I’m much too well-bred to voice my opinion on this matter. just because a great number of people believe something doesn’t make it ok. Many Christians believe that other religions aren’t as good as their own. That’s not okay. If the majority believes it’s ok to say Jesus is a myth, what am I suppose to believe, that the majority is right? Of course not, but I’m biased. You’re talking to a Christian. However, if the majority tells me that creationism is right, am I supposed to believe? You’re implying that no, I’m not supposed to believe anything as long as the majority believes it.If the majority says it’s ok, to get drunk and I know a lot of people that says its ok, what shall I do then, ignore where it says drunkness is a sin? Give me a break, the Word of God supercedes everything. But how can you prove every word of the Bible was set down by God? Science says Supernaturalism doesn’t happen.. Actually, Science admits that there are a lot of strange phenomenon which can’t be explained through scientific reasoning. they say that because it’s not a regular occurance something they can measure but that doesn’t rule it out.. and the Apostles saw Jesus do Supernatural things, and even Jesus’ enemies.. what should I believe a secular humanist b/c science can’t measure it.. go talk to some unprepared person who doesn’t think outside of the box as we are accused of doing. Science is not an ultimatum; it presents you with a number of theories and then asks you to decide after you have weighed the evidence.
 
You said:
Of course, as a Christian, I place my faith in Jesus, but you believe in a whole lot of things that Jesus did not say, for example, the Bible must be taken literally word for word. He never said it, so I won’t take the Bible literally word for word.

My reply:
You see this is what I have a problem with.. you really don’t understand what we mean when we say literally word for word, that isn’t what theology says. We take the Bible as literally true.. but you don’t take where Jesus said “gouge out your eye if it causes you to sin” there is a literal truth behind what He is saying when you read the whole context.. if you read everything around it.. Have read everything around Genesis, and looked at all the fossil evidence, the counter arguments, Christ’s word, and then decided that Genesis is one big metaphor. Jesus is saying that if something causes you to sin, cut it out of your life, deal with it harshly, even if you have to run from it, lke Joseph ran from Potiphar’s Wife. However that doesn’t mean that you take Genesis and say it’s the same language used with the example I gave.. you need to understand literal truth where somethings are used as teaching tools for the imagery involved to when it’s literally talking about real people, places and events. Anyone who reads the first 5 books will find that archeology has backed many things… And refuted many others. no one said you believe every word as a literal word. That
is dangerous if you don’t understand that literal truth is communicated but you have to know the literary style. What you are doing is taking Genesis, and saying it’s symbolic, and applying a text that is a teaching text to apply it to a historical text. And we already talked about what Jesus said.. we disagree.. Jesus talked about Adam in a real personal sense, God is Great (Allahu akbar! Elohim Gadol!) and beyond the undertanding of us mere mortals.  and you are denying that. You sound just like a atheist..You seem very keen on proving that I’m an atheist so you can give me the finger. and I’m wondering if you have been reading atheistic material. I’ve read atheist stuff, Catholic stuff, Lutheran stuff, Muslim stuff, pagan stuff, Buddhist stuff…I can’t be all of those things at once.
 
where did this idea come from.. what books did you read. How much time have you got, Ego? I read about three books a week. I’m getting an education, after all. because you obviously have been influenced by something else for sure. Forget the books, you want to know what makes me tick? Go watch Kingdom of Heaven. It’s written by a Christian.
 
You said:
In the beginning, there was little oxygen, but lots of anaerobic algae
My reply:
Here is the problem. the rocks or this planet formed b/4 any algae. So here is where i have a problem with your free thinking. Oxygen, where did it come from? How was it produced? There was little oxygen, not none. Did you fail English reading comprehension along with science, Ego?  At what point did the algae come into play? When God created life. The rocks show that they were formed in an oxygen rich environment? How much is rich? You know, we need a heck of a lot of Oxygen to survive, while other animals don’t need as much. Rocks formed before planet life I don’t think planets have developed lives of their own yet. did it not? And from what I have quoted from an evolutionary source, oxygen was present when the first cell (algae) existed so how could it evolve or come to exist? These are questions I want answered.. so with your free thinking mind, I’m sure you can tell me all these things. I did mention that I believe God created the world, life, and then initiated evolution, didn’t I? And you are speaking from an evolutionary worldview.. I don’t believe they were the first things alive, or in the evolutionary timescale. You want me to take the worldview of science which denies Supernaturalism and God.. LOL. how is that? No, I want you to embrace the world view where science and God are compatible, and everyone is equal.
 
You said:
As for unicellular organisms becoming multicellular, that happens when these single celled organisms join together in a mass and survive better. They are more like a ’society’, if you like, than a single organism at the moment. However, these cells evolved to rely on one another, and some evolved their own specific adaptations. These ‘masses’ of cells started to form simple multicellular organisms, like jellyfish. Miraculous, but possible; nothing is beyond God, as I said, and I believe that God initiated evolution.
My reply:
LOL.. the fossil record doesn’t support what you are saying.. there is no evidence that single celled ever evolved to multi-celluar organisms.. There is a strata where evidence of single celled organisms were found, and then the next strata, they found some multi-cellular organisms. From logic, it is possible to deduct that these single-celled organisms evolved into multi-cellular organisms. you and many secular humanist evolutionist have a hard time admitting this is an assumption. How about you show me the Creationist point of view then? What, did the first wave of the Flood bury only the single-celled organisms, and then the second wave buried the other single-celled organisms and the multi-cellular organisms?
 
And God didn’t use the evolutionary model of bacteria to man.. because again they contradict. I stand on the Bible as Adam and Eve were created.. and the Bible says birds were created b/4 dinosaurs.. which contradicts the bible.. so we have been over that one b/4.. it’s moot.. i don’t operate in that non-sense assumption basd fatih Are you trying to write Arabic here? I love Arabic! of evolution. And I don’t accept dogmatic fanatical faith.
 
You said:
The west opressed Muslims
My reply:
In what way?

 

 

 

 

Look at Palestine and the situation of common people in all the Middle Eastern countries. Look at the Revolution in Iran, when they overthrew the Shah, who was an American puppet. Look at the Saudi royals who bow to America and exploit their own people because the Americans can benefit, and thus they benefit. Look at the racism.  
 
You said:
Ego, you told me not to generalize. However, you generalize a lot more than I ever can. Did you know that there are people who don’t believe in the Bible but don’t believe in evolution either? What do you call them? They are certainly not ‘neos’. These people I speak of are the Pagans, the people who believe we are an experiment being conducted by aliens and so on and so forth. Follow your own advice and don’t generalize. There are many people who don’t believe in the Bible, and not all of them are like me.
My reply:
Who said I thought that way. I know that pagans had a belief in evolution. You assume I believed that way. I also know pagans who don’t believe in evolution, but they don’t believe in the Bible’s way either.
 
You said:
I don’t need a link to back up my arguments. Some people do own a brain and did pass high school, you know. For fossils that can be found in a number of stratas, all you can say is that they survived for a long time because of their genetic advantages. Look at sharks; they are some of the longest surviving species around. Why? Early on, they evolved streamlined bodies which made them faster than blunt-headed armoured fish, and they could catch more prey even if they did die more easily. More food means better reproduction. They evolved the ability to replace teeth continually, meaning that they could always catch their food. They evolved tough scales for protection from other predators, which made them even better suited to survival. This is natural selection.
 
My reply:
Yeah, you show that very well you don’t back up what you are saying, it’s pretty much your improvising ways…. so if you say that there are people living on another planet, it’s all backed up by brain power, yeah.. ok.. Look, improvisation is a sign of intelligence and quick thinking. At least I passed high school; that’s something you don’t seem to have done.
 
And I’m not an evolutionist I don’t view genetic material the same as an evolutionist.. sorry, preach that to your fellow believers.. If they already believe, then I would be wasting my breath preaching to the converted. i’m not one. You are very adept at pointing out the obvious, Ego. I’m impressed.
 
Your last comment isn’t worth answering. I’ll leave it to Scripture
 
Proverbs 26:4
Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you will be like him yourself. Answer him only with the supposed Word of God, for then he will be convinced of his folly and repent.
Proverbs 26:3-5 (in Context) Proverbs 26 (Whole Chapter) What, no more quoting?
Proverbs 26:5
Answer a fool according to his folly, or he will be wise in his own eyes. Hey, Ego, maybe I should be more condescending towards you. Otherwise, you’ll think you’re smart.

The Great YouTube Debate 9

N/B: Ego-eimi’s replies to my last post can be seen in the comments of The Great YouTube Debate 8.

Ego-eimi: First thing first, must you insist in clogging up my inbox with nineteen posts? You could have put all of those in one post, and then directed me to your blog. It saves your time and mine. Secondly, one or two typos are all right. Your number of spelling mistakes…sorry, I don’t do text language, not even on my mobile phone. Call me a stuck up arrogant little girl if you want, but I’m all for proper English. Right, so to save your time, I’ll summarize my points and probably will leave out the less important ones.

Now, I’ve looked over your stuff. I’m sorry you took two hours to type it all up because it was tedious to read. About your answer concerning the marine animals. That was not an answer. Yes, some died while giving birth, but not that many. If that many had died, they would have all gone extinct long ago. So what really happened? The Old Earth theory is the one that can explain it.  

No, I do not believe that a woman should be subject to a man’s authority, nor should she need to follow a man. There is a reason why I admire Eleanor of Aquitaine. She was never subject to any man. She had the power. Her first husband divorced her and lost most of his kingdom. Jesus never said women were inferior. Have you noticed? It was the women who were the most devoted of His disciples. They were better than the twelve because they dared to be present during His passion. I also don’t believe in social hierarchies. Respect is earned. I won’t respect someone more just because he is a man or she is a woman or he is older than me or whatever.

I believe that God judges us by our actions. So it doesn’t matter what you believe as long as you abide by His laws and make the world a better place by bringing peace. Jesus came to bring peace. Jesus is Peace. And by bringing peace, we are following His way. Those who claim to be Christians and yet spread dissension amongst others by saying that they are better just because they are baptized are not doing what Christ advocated. I would die for peace, but not for religion.

As for Osama bin Laden, I see where his anger is coming from. While he’s transformed it into religion, it’s actually national pride. Look at the Middle East. You see Americans controlling the Saudi royals, Americans controlling the oil, Americans controlling everything worth controlling. Western companies exploit the poor of the Middle East. They wreak havoc, and they don’t care how many people they hurt as long as they get rich. Look at Blackwater. Look at Palestine. Bin Laden is angry on behalf of the poor and the exploited. He wants to be free of the western yoke. The West has always been associated with Christianity, so in his mind, the right thing to do, if he was to liberate his people, was to declare the lesser Jihad. Do you know how many people look at him as the modern Saladin? They need hope and someone to lead them to it. People without hope do dangerous things.

Now look at you. Are you persecuted and exploited so that you have no food on the table? No, you’re not. Do people put Bibles on toilet seats like the soldiers in Abu Ghraib did with the Qur’an? I don’t think so. If they do, believe me, I would be just as angry. Are your brethren shot for no reason? No. Osama has a reason to be angry. I call him a fanatic and I call him delusional, but since I can see the cause, I feel pity for him.

As for all the laws of the Old Testament, do you follow them? Do you eat pork? Apparently, God said not to eat pork, snails, snakes, anything that crawls etc. Would the French and the Chinese and most people in the world be cursed then? If the Old Testament with all its laws were truly that reliable, then we would be following them all, instead of cherry-picking, as you like to say. The segregation of lepers, let me tell you, is something that most people in the ancient world, pagan or otherwise, did. The Hebrews simply incorporated it into their religion and gave it religious justification because it felt wrong to ostracize someone who was already ill and suffering. However, they believed leprosy was contagious because they mixed it up with syphilis and they feared catching leprosy/syphilis, so they made segregation compulsory by incorporating it into religious law. It made them feel better about doing it. In Psychology, this is called the theory of cognitive dissonance.

Here’s the passage concerning Moses and the Midianites.

I’ll let the text speak for itself.

I used the question of adultery as an example. Do I inherit the sins of my ancestors? No, I don’t. I have my own sins, but they’re different from those of my ancestors. In that same way, I do not inherit the sins of Adam and Eve (and I believe they are symbolic, so it is moot.) Why would the Bible then say that people inherited the original sin? Because the ancients believed that children carried the sins of their parents. That was why illegitimate children were ostracized. All people are born with a clean record, but with the potential to sin. That does not mean that they are born with sin. The potential to get a PhD, for example, does not make me a holder of a PhD.

Racial discrimination is discrimination. Religious discrimination is also discrimination. Would you say that Jews worship the wrong way? There is no right way of worship. Many would say that Protestants worship the wrong way, and others would say that Catholics worship the wrong way. Coptic Christians, Syriac Christians, Armenian Christians, Greek Orthodox Christians, Cathars, Hussites, Sunni Muslims, Sevener Shi’ite Muslims, Twelver Shi’ite Muslims, Wahabis, Sufis; we all worship in a different way. You cannot say that someone worships the wrong way just because they don’t worship the way you do. To say that they are wrong would be narrowminded. Do you know why there was an Albigensian crusade? Certain Christians believed that other Christians weren’t worshipping Christ correctly and that they weren’t believing in the right doctrines, and they went down and massacred them or forcefully converted them to the ‘right’ way of worship. What about the Spanish Inquisition? They burned Jews and Protestants just because they weren’t Catholics. That’s discrimination. You might think that your little bit of religious discrimination won’t do much, but it builds up. I don’t want another holocaust, and I’m sure you don’t either.

Adam is a symbol for all human beings, meaning that God made the covenant with all human beings. How does that not make sense?

I’ll tell you something; I was seduced by your way of life once. I once read a novel called Sedona Storm and it discriminated against the occult as well as other forms of more lenient Christianity. The authors were devout Christians, and they took the Bible very literally. The book told of how the Holy Spirit spoke directly to one of the characters. It was an exciting read, and to my childish mind, it made so much sense. I needed God’s presence in my life and I thought that perhaps this book had the answers. I went to church every week, but I did not feel God. So I took up this pious lifestyle of prayer and denounced anything that went against the Bible, except evolution because it still made so much sense. Guess what? I didn’t feel God either. The more I looked, the more artificial this sort of lifestyle became. Then along came another story, about an agnostic and depressed man who finally finds God. Yes, I’m talking about Kingdom of Heaven. You should see it sometime; it can teach you a lot of things. The moment I understood the film was the moment I found God. I didn’t find Him in scripture, I didn’t find him in prayer; I found him in this story which advocated peace and goodness, and nothing else. It was from then onwards that I understood that advocating peace and love was the only way to God and to salvation.

Fighting and dying for religion; we’ve been through all that. Look at the Holy Land. It was once the Kingdom of Heaven. The oranges of Jaffa, the fabrics of Damascus and Mosul; it was rich, it was vibrant. It was prosperous and heavenly. Coptic Christians, Syriac Christians, Armenian Christians, Jews and Muslims lived in harmony alongside each other, sharing festivals, doing trade. They even shared the same temples. The church of St. John the Baptist in Damascus once had a Christian end and a Muslim end, and even though the Muslims have long since bought the church and converted it into a mosque, there is still a niche for St. John’s head. Then along came the Crusaders, who believed that the only way to God was their way, much as you believe, Ego-eimi. They fought for God on that soil. They’re still fighting for God over there, so now it’s Hell on earth.

So open your mind to other religions and beliefs. Let them be, and don’t try and say that you’re better than them because of what you believe. Such pride is unbecoming of anyone, let alone a self-proclaimed devout follower of Christ. Jesus was humility personified.

The Great YouTube Debate 8

Egoeimi replied, and you can read his reply in the comments for The Great Youtube Debate 7. If you can’t be bothered reading it in full, because it is extremely long, I will be summarizing his points.

Charge number 1: I have not been answering all his questions, and he expects me to because I expect him to, so I must do it to him too.

Ego-eimi, I expect you to answer my points and questions, yes, but you never fully answer mine. Remember that question about marine reptiles? Well, I’ll refresh your memory. I asked you, if dinosaur fossils were formed when the Great Flood covered them with mud, then how come the fossils of the marine reptiles are found in the same strata? Those two groups went extinct at the same time, and if the Flood caused the great number of dinosaur deaths, did it cause the deaths of all those marine reptiles too? Did those sea creatures also drown in the flood? You told me to ask someone who knew a bit more about them. That is not an answer.

Charge number 2: My claims that Paul and the apostles could be wrong are unfounded, because Christ promised them that the Holy Spirit would refresh their memories.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit would refresh the memories of the apostles and remind them of what Christ has taught them. However, Paul is more often doling out advice. Jesus never said anything about how women should behave, yet Paul says that a woman must submit herself to her husband. Then you say that the Old Testament is also the absolute truth. This is unfounded. In it, it says that ”Anyone who is discovered to have leprosy must tear his clothes and let his hair grow in wild disarray, and cover his upper lip and call out as he goes, ‘I am a leper, I am a leper’ [which means that he is unclean] As long as the disease lasts, he is defiled and must live outside the camp.’ (Leviticus 13:45-46) However, leprosy is not highly infectious, and quarantine is not necessary, as most people are immune to it. God must have known it, and He would not cause those people to suffer so by forcing them to be isolated. This shows the human influence in the Bible.   

You say that those ordained by God cannot be wrong. However, Moses himself said this. “Why have you let all the [Midianite] women live? These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and cuased the people of Israel to worship idols on Mount Peor, and they are the cause of the plague that destroyed us. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have had sexual intercourse. Only the little girls may live; you may keep them for yourselves.” Here is a chosen one of God ordering massacres and paedophilia, for what do you think would happen to those little girls kept by the soldiers? How can you say that Moses was acting in God’s name here? The Old Testament is a history of the Hebrew people, yes, but not every word of it is the word of God, unless you take it into context, in which case, God would not have told the ancients about evolution and genetic mutation because they simply would not have understood it. Nor would he have spoken of continental drift, the millions of years of natural history, and so on and so forth.

You say that Jesus would accept everything that Paul said. How about this?  “And that is why a woman who publicly prays or prophesies without a covering on her head dishonours her husband [for her covering is a sign of her subjection to him]. Yes, if she refuses to wear a head covering, then she should cut off all her hair. And if it is shameful for a woman to have her head shaved, then she should wear a covering…So a woman should wear a covering on her head as a sign that she is under man’s authority, a fact for all the angels to notice and rejoice in.” Would Jesus approve of such double standards and inequality? I doubt He would. This sort of thing was not what he preached, and he never said anything about women’s dress codes.

Charge number 3: Jesus refuting the handwashing was symbolic of him making the old rules and traditions obsolete.

Exactly, so that means Jesus Himself knows that the Old Testament was not all correct, and therefore we must treat the Old Testament with some skepticism, including the Book of Genesis. Elijah might have told people to accept all or nothing when it came to religion, but he was one of those old prophets. If Jesus refuted the old laws and ways, then perhaps Elijah’s warning might not have been correct either.

Ego-eimi wants to know how I think people can find salvation.

One is saved by doing the right thing, which means following God’s commandments. There are the ten, and there is that special one; “Love one another as I have loved you.” To be saved, you must be brave and upright. You must speak the truth, and not bury your conscience behind convenience. You must never blame your mistakes on someone else, even if they did tell you to make such a mistake, because your mind, your body and your conscience are your own. You must safeguard the helpless and defend those who cannot defend themselves. You must make the world a better place by bringing peace and prosperity to everyone, not just your own kind. Yes, I paraphrased that from the movie Kingdom of Heaven, but that is only because I agree with it. Note that I did not quote directly from it.

He also want to know whether I would die for Christ.

As for whether I would die for Jesus, I honestly don’t know, and I hope that God will not put me to the test. However, I would die for peace, for that is what I truly believe in. The type of discrimination which you practise, Ego-eimi, can only lead to war. It already has led to war; the Crusades are a very good example. The Christians believed themselves to be better than the Muslims, and more deserving of the Holy Land, and vice versa.

He wants to know whether I believe in the Resurrection.

Yes, and I’ve answered it before.

The Canaanite question.

Of course some of them fought back. If someone invaded the U.S., would you not fight back? Defense of one’s country is not a sin. Rather, it is an honourable thing to do. Killing the defenders is something that a human might do, but even the more honourable human commanders would let their honourable adversaries live. See Saladin and his adversary, Balian of Ibelin. Killing the defenders was something that the Israelites wanted to do, so they put it down in the holy book as a divine order.

I’d rather not get into an argument about Al-Qaeda, for while I don’t agree with Osama bin Laden, I pity him and I can see where he’s coming from.

Have you seen Atheists going around handing out flyers and magazines, trying to convert people? I don’t think so. I’ve seen lots of Christians do it though. This sort of evangelization is called ramming beliefs down people’s throats. As for Jesus saying that “He is the only way”, I believe that he meant His teachings are the only way to Heaven. That’s fine, because Mohammed preached the same things as Jesus did; peace, unity, justice and love. Those are the things which lead people to God, and that makes Mohammed a prophet. That is what the Qur’an is supposed to be; God’s word, in Arabic. God doesn’t only speak Aramaic and Greek, you know. Mohammed did lead his people to God. They call their god Allah, which means ‘The One God’, and they recognize that Allah is also the God of the Christians and of the Jews. Which in turn means that they believe in the same God as we do. Looking down on Muslims because you believe they worship the wrong way is discrimination, and that leads to war. That is not what a Christian is supposed to do.

Also, have you realized that not all Christians have the same doctrines and beliefs?

You know what, I think you like being persecuted because it makes you feel holy. You feel like you’re a warrior for your faith. No one is persecuting the Christian way of life. The atheists only want you to keep your beliefs to yourselves.

I’m not saying that the theologians don’t know what they’re talking about. They know what they’re talking about. I just don’t agree with them. From my readings, I’ve made my own decisions about certain things in life and I’ve formulated my own opinions. 

As for genetic mutations, it’s been observed. Look at Downs Syndrome, for example. People have been able to create new organisms through changing the DNA structure and artificially inserting gene sequences into other gene sequences. Therefore, evolution is not a faith, but a scientific theory. A theory is an idea which is reasonable, but still has mistakes.

“These creatures use this light for communicating with each other and identifying others of their own species, since most other sea creatures cannot detect such a light, which is important for their survival.”

Scientists have observed that light is used by different organisms for communication. One can incorporate prove facts into their arguments to back it up. Quoting opinions, however, just means you are too lazy. By the way, that was not a quote. It’s not a fault to be able to write better than you. If you’d read enough scientific stuff, you would realize that sentence is not a very good sentence. No one in their right mind would publish something written like that.

As I’ve said, evolution is a theory, which means it still has room for presumptions and guesses. However, it makes a lot more sense than ‘The world was created in seven days and you’d better believe it or else you’re going to burn in hell.’

Here’s a quote from ArianneG which explains evolution:

“Look at the fruit fly experiments, and things like Down’s syndrome and Angelman’s syndrome! Evolution happens all around us; our genes are changing from generation to generation. Jut because said mutations are ’silent’ (non-expressed mutations) doesn’t mean that they aren’t there, or that they can’t produce great effects within a single generation. Whenver genetic content changes, whether radically or minor fashion, evolution and change is ongoing.”

No, I do not believe in original sin. Just because an illegitimate child’s parents are guilty of adultery does not mean that the child also carries that sin. And I don’t even believe in Adam and Eve. I believe all people are born with clean records, and it is what they do that makes them wicked or good. So, yes, I think baptism is obsolete. I was never ‘conversted’ or rather, converted. I was born into the faith, and have been raised as a Christian.

I asked about sin b/4. Sin is a real thing, it’s disobedience to God. Adam sinned, it’s a fact that it’s taught that Sin came thru one man Adam.. but the Second Adam which is Jesus dealt with Sin and defeated it for us who are being Saved. Jesus talked about Adam and Eve when the Divorce issue came up.. that isn’t symbolic people… and I said b/4, if sin didn’t come thru real people but symbolic people then that means sin doesn’t really exist so why would we need Jesus? The Adamic Covenant was insituted with Adam… that isn’t made to symbolic people.

As I don’t believe in original sin, arguing about the fact is moot. Yes, Jesus did come to save us from sin, however, because He showed us how to live correctly, and that is by loving each other as He has loved us. How many times do I have to repeat it? That is the only way to salvation and that is the only rule a Christian, or anyone else, needs to follow.

As I believe that Adam represents all human beings, that covenant was made to us all. It was not made to a symbolic person because we are not symbolic. Adam, however, is.

And is writing in proper English too much to ask? If you really took an entire hour to write this reply, then you would at least make the effort to write ‘because’ instead of ‘b/c’ and ‘before’ instead of ‘b/4′.

The Great YouTube Debate 7

Ego-eimi’s got his own blog and he’s posting his replies there; I thought I’d paste his response here to make things easier and to add to the continuity:

ok I’m here so lets get it on.. before I get into talking about Genesis.. I guess I need to address these comments you made in the Great Debate. 

 

You said:

 

You were the one who first called me ‘arrogant’. Yes, you were judging my character when you’d only met me on the internet once, and I was naught but a name witha message beneathit. So, in fact, you are saying, “Don’t judge me, but I’m free to judge you all I want because it’s the right judgement.” Yeah, that shows you’re a truly born again Christian with the mind of Christ.

 

My Reply:

 

The defining the different meanings of arrogance first:

 

arrogant implies a claiming for oneself of more consideration or importance than is warranted <a conceited and arrogant executive>. haughty suggests a consciousness of superior birth or position <a haughty aristocrat>. lordly implies pomposity or an arrogant display of power <a lordly condescension>. insolent implies contemptuous haughtiness <ignored by an insolent waiter>. overbearing suggests a tyrannical manner or an intolerable insolence <an overbearing supervisor>. supercilious implies a cool, patronizing haughtiness <an aloof and supercilious manner>. disdainful suggests a more active and openly scornful superciliousness <disdainful of their social inferiors>.

 

When I see #1.. evolutionist attacking Christians for their belief in creation when #1, they don’t have to believe it.. just state way you don’t believe it.. but don’t start insulting people and think that you are more superior an individual that is arrogance.  If you notice the video is an evolutionist attacking the idea of the Creation Museum.. if neo’s were simple saying why without resorting to saying we are ignorant, etc, etc.. then I wouldn’t call them arrogant… If you had been around awhile, every neo faith believe has always, always 100% resorted to name calling, saying someone is ignorant, stupid, a moron, and the list go’s on and on.. for what?  You have shown that you are no different. 

 

 

 

You said:

 

 

You are so certain that every word of the Bible is the word of God. Have you any proof? You say our theoretical proof for evolution isn’t proper proof, so where’s your proper proof that the Bible was actually dictated to humans by God? You have no such proof. You must think the ancient world was Utopia, Ego-eimi, where people didn’t lie and didn’t use God to justify their evil acts. Did God really tell the Israelites to massacre the Canaanites, down to the very last child? I doubt it, especially he’d just given them that simple commandment which said, ‘Thou shalt not kill.’

 

My reply:

 

I can’t believe you claim to be a Christian when you ask how do we know that God dictated the what He wanted said to those who followed Him.

 

#1.. Let me quote what Peter said:  2 Peter 1:16

We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

 

#2 Let me quote more of what the Apostle Paul said in his letters to the Apostle Timothy: 

 

1 Timothy 4:7

Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.

 

IN Titus:

 

13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

 

Now if you look at that text.. if doesn’t prove nothing yet.. but I will add.. based on the science of archeology… it’s a fact the bible is a historical text.. King Herod verified… the pool of Besadaalong with thsi also

 

Jesus would be born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14, “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

Fulfilled in Matt. 1:18,25, “This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary…was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit… But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.”

 

To not take up more and more space.. I ask you.. Peter. .was an eyewitness of what Jesus did.. it’s a fact that people they mentioned in the Gospels existed.. the Apostles recorded what Jesus said about Scripture.. Paul wrote that All Scripture is God breathed.. Jesus told them not to lie.. the Prophecies which I only mentioned one.. the fact that archeology has never contradicted the bible and has only continued to verify it.. that proves that it’s inspired, because they witnesses the Jesus that you are suppose to believe and have faith in.. so my premise is simple

 

1.  Jesus existed

2.  Jesus preformed miracles

3.  Jesus had eyewitnesses to the miracles

4.  Even Jesus enemies saw the miracles and didnt’ write against it as false

5.  Jesus said and talked about the Word of God and living by the Word of God

6.  Therefore the Bible is the Word of God

 

Because Jesus Himself.. demonstrated who he was in front of real people.. told them to go and preach the Gospel.. and validated them by giving them power to do miracles just like the pattern has been thru out the bible OT Prophets and Apostles were given power to demonstrate..

 

So u tell me how it’s not Inspired when they witnessed the one prophecied about.. saw Him do miracles as was prophesied that Jesus would do, they died for it.. when they simply could have denied all of it to live, and Jesus Himself gave them Authoirty, which u think ordaination means nothing.. well when Jesus does to someone, it suppose to mean something…

 

You said..

 

If the words of every prophet was actually written down correctly and validated by God, then perhaps I should believe every single word of the Qur’an as well, because Mohammed was a prophet.

 

 

My reply:

 

No Mohammed isn’t a prophet by biblical standards.. and u are suppose to know this.. how long have u been a Christian?  The rules for a Prophet are laid out in Scripture.

 

OT Prophets.. this is another thing that validates them as speaking the very words of God, and I already gave you an example u didn’t address.. If a Prophet said anything that God said would happen if Israel for example didn’t repent.. if it didn’t come true 100% they didn’t hear from God, but if it did then they did speak the words of God.  The prophecies about Jesus like His virgin birth, Jesus was born of a virgin, His mother was looked upon as unclean because she was preganant before marriage.. and Jesus was called a bastard if you don’t know what is said in Jewish history.  And how do we know she was a virgin.. well it’s simple.. it was prophecied coupled with Jesus’ miracles.. if Jesus wasn’t born of a virgin, that would make God a liar which the bible says God can’t do.. and the miracles validate that He was indeed the one.. and people friends and foes saw Jesus doing the miracles… so what am I suppose to reject it.. give me a good reason to reject it.. again, when there were eyewitnesses to the miracles which validate Jesus and if He wasn’t virgin born, then He would be invalidated as the Messiah..

 

So to say.. Mohammad wasn’t a Prophet.. not by the biblical standards He didn’t do Miracles like the Apostles.. and the Quran speaks against Jesus as Resurrected.. therefore why would u a so called Christian even try to use it to make your point against the Bible?

 

You said:  How do you know that every single prophet spoke the absolute truth and that they didn’t somehow misinterpret information?

 

My reply:

 

Already addressed it.. if they spoke for God it had to happen 100%, if they didn’t it was false.  Anyone who exams the Scripture the Dead Sea Scrolls and see the verses mentioned in Isiah about Jesus.. knowing those things were written hundreds of years prior and they happened the way God said it.. then it’s from God.. and if you read the OT and what the Prophets said.. it’s consitent all the way thru..  God doesn’t change.. how He validates people…

 

You said:

You must think the ancient world was Utopia, Ego-eimi, where people didn’t lie and didn’t use God to justify their evil acts. Did God really tell the Israelites to massacre the Canaanites, down to the very last child? I doubt it, especially he’d just given them that simple commandment which said, ‘Thou shalt not kill.’

 

 

My reply:

 

I never said people don’t use God to justify their behavior.. why didn’t u quote so everyone could see the verse I quote about people thinking they were doing things in the name of the Lord when we were talking about the Crusades?  Why did u leave that out?  You give the appearance that I didn’t address that in your forum..

 

About Moses ordingthe Israelites to go to war with the Canaanites.  Yes God would order that.. remember.. God sent the Flood that killed more people than that.. so why would I not think that?  Second.. the people of the day like Israel lived under a ban.. which means that when they went to war in those times tribes would often kill who villiages.. and secondly from what I have studied about the Cutlureof the day Jewish people.. God always gave nations time to repent.. God never, ever sent Israel to war without giving a nation a chance.. and thirdly, you don’t know either that.. the only ones killed when it says Israel killed all.. it’s not talking about all in the sense u are thinking.. it’s all those who choose to fight Israel.. you do realize that woman and young children went withIsrael.. but also that children there are also several views.. some see those children as of fighting age the ones that died. some see it as if God chooses He can take life at any age, b/c He created it..my view is there were woman and very young children who were not corrupted were spared and lived as aliens with Israel.. ever heard of Rahab?  A non-Jew… God took in those that accepted Him. and those that rejected Him in that time period when Israel was going to the Promised Land.. that was that time period..

 

And why are you trying to defend God.. God is well aware of what People would say reading the Old Testament?  God needs no defending.. the Gospel message is offensive… and that needs no defense.. so if you are trying to say your God is mercyful, not Vengiful, then you are ignoring a whole lot of what is to happen on Judgement day.. when God will judge the wicked.. I”m not worried about what people think of God and what God ordered.. why are you?

 

 

 

You said:

 

Jeremiah might have been telling the truth, but would every prophet be like him and tell the absolute truth? And Paul was simply writing down his views. They could be wrong. How can you prove anything? Are you going to say that you know Paul was completely right because you have the mind of Christ, and since you think he’s right, then Christ must surely agree with you? Just because someone is ordained doesn’t mean that they don’t make mistakes. They’re still human.

 

My reply:

You are making an assumption which you can.. asking question that could have someone been wrong.. of course.. but when it comes to God telling those who He selects as when they Prophecied.. or said what God will do if someone doesn’t repent.. that isn’t wrong but truth as long as if it happened as they said God said it.. that eleminates error.  Same thing with Paul it applies, if he said anything that God said, it has to happen 100%, that is how you eliminate the Jim Jones and the David Koresh’s.  And I didn’t say Paul was completely right.. Paul got into arguments with other Apostles they had disputes.. but that doesn’t remove the fact that God can use ordinary people, and it is you that sounds like an unbeliever lacking faith in God’s abilities to use people?  Do you doubt God can use people since you have claimed to be a Christian?  Can God exercise the use of people if they are willing to be used by Him?

 

and yeah.. ordaintion doesn’t eliminate make a sinful mistake.. why do you think 1 John 1:9 is there for all Christians to see?  Peter denied Jesus 3 times.. but Jesus still used Him.. your problem seems to be that yes we are mistake prone.. but that doesn’t mean we can’t communicate God’s truth, one has nothing to do with the other.. it doesn’t mean just because you tell a lie at one moment that you can’t ever speak truth…. God commanded repentance, but God also commanded being truthful to your neighbor, and they were truthful when it came to communicating things about Jesus, God, Faith, the Holy Spirit.. why would they lie about Jesus? Why would they lie about God?  When there is warnings of misleading people like Jesus said about misleading children?  There is a consiquence.

 

 

 

You said:

 

If Christianity means discriminating against people of other beliefs, and universalism means getting along with everybody and spreading peace, then I’ll gladly be a universalist, Ego-eimi

 

My reply:

 

Then what are you going to say or what would you say to Jesus when He clearly said that He is the truth, the way and the Life, no one comes to the Father except thru Him?  Are you going to say John lied then about what Jesus said, when John was an eyewitness to Jesus?  Does that mean Jesus is a bioget?  Does that mean Jesus isn’t peaceful?  No.. but Jesus Himself, said He came to bring division, do you know where that is even written in the Bible?  Jesus came to seperate the sheep from the goats.. meaning the wicked from the richteous, Jesus came to get those who will and are willing to repent.. that is what it is weater I like it or not.  But what would you say to Him, because Jesus isn’t a universalilst.. and that makes me question your faith, why would you go against Jesus. unless you are going to call people lies without justification, u are assuming that Prophets or Apostles lied, withproving it.. so why don’t you prove John lied.. I believe John told the truth about Jesus being the only way to Heaven, because He too witnessed miracles done by Jesus so what’s the justification for lying?

 

 

 

You said:

 

A religion which spreads dissension, discrimination and hatred is not one which I want to be part of. And how is your attitude spreading Christ’s love?

 

My reply:

 

LOL.. if society was all atheistic, guess what there will still be dissension, discrimination and hatred.  Look you have got to be kidding if you think that Christianity is the cause of any of those things.. you can look to the late communist country of Russia, and see that there was dissenstion in that country.  I have been discriminated against for several reasons, by non-religouspeople… so if you are saying you don’t want to be a part of a faith because of those things, then where are you giong to go live?  Because those things weather a person is white, black, green, a Muslim, a Buddist, an Atheist, there will always be someone out there with a population of 6.5 billion people that is non-religousthat will do one of those things.. heck, I’m married, and me and my wife have experience dissension between each other.. i had that withmy sister growing up, u can’t avoid it, and faithsometimes or not has nothing to do with it.

 

 

 

You said:

 

Yes, I’m a broken record for declaring that evolution makes more sense than creationism. However, I’m at least not quoting anyone, and adding my own arguments as to why I believe that evolution actually happened and is compatible with religion. Which brings me to the ‘correct way’ to interpret historical texts, whether they are secular or  religious. Just because someone has a Ph’D doesn’t mean they’re smarter than me. If we all just deferred to people with Ph’Ds, then no one would ever get new ideas. We’d still be living in the dark ages, believing that ”God has revealed the truth through religion. Reason can be used to prove the truth. However, if reason contradicts religion, then reason is obsolete.” Wait, you still believe that twelfth century teaching, don’t you? 

 

My reply:

 

Are you serious.. just because someone has a Ph’D doesn’t mean they’re smarter than you?  Really.. so does that mean that a Doctor who has a Ph’d in cardiology isn’t smarter than you in that context?  How about oncology?  You need to make a comment when it comes to Ph’d’s in proper context.. yes they are smarter than you which ever the context.. Yes an evolutionary Ph’d in genetics is smarter than me.. that’s why I quote a ph’dcreationist with the same degree from a major university against it.

 

But I do come up with my own ideas and see that creation makes more sense than evolution.  I asked you the other day a question you didn’t even answer based on your own words that you like to think for yourself, but you didn’t address in the context of evoution of why it’s explained in the context of it better then creation.  So I’ll ask again.. explain in your own terms how red bioluminescent light isn’t seen prior to what we see today which it’s something an animals has to have deep in the ocean where there is no light.. explain to me. how it survived, what was it’s way of getting food while this was developing,, where is the animal it came from that had this feature in development.. if you are going to walk the walk, then talk the talk and explain to me how evoution explains this better than evolution?

 

 

 

What 12th century teaching are you speaking of?

 

And if that is how you interpet historical text.. then that is why you are in much error.. about Genesis.

 

You say Adam is symbolic.. or that Genesis is symbolic when it comes to creation.

 

Ok..

 

Then tell me how this is symbolic when there is no appearance of symbolic language used and I’ll quote several verses and by the way.. u didn’t address the sin question… If Adam is a symbolic person, then that means sin is symbolic, and Jesus had no reason to die for sins.. or do you not know why Jesus came?

 

Here are some verses:

Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

 

The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

 

Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man.”

 

I quoted a few verses referencing to Adam.. now how is it that Adam lay with his wife symbolic?  It’s the same Adam that God created in the verses preceding it.. Why would God makes garments for a symbolic person?  ARe you going to call Moses a liar without justification?  Adam named his wife Eve, how is that symbolic language compared to your misuse of Jesus answering Matt. question about seventy times seven in the proper context of forgivness which they were talking about..

 

And in ending..

 

What is your purpose.. to entertain yourself.. I notice that your comment in the end and I quote

 

“So come on, defend your faith. You said in your last reply that you’re never a coward when it comes to defending what you believe. So come and defend it now, or you will be a coward in front of the world. I won’t even have to say it.”

 

What?  is this a game to you?  A teenager having fun?  Seeing how many people will jump on your bandwagon?  See how many people like it has been as I have read some comments from onlookers the same old thing of mocking a Christian for believing in the Bible which that is what a Actual Christian does in comparison to you which you are misleading people away from the bible, which there is warnings against. 

 

I didn’t come here to show the world I”m not afraid.. i’mnot. but if someone gets some help, weather it be one person that turns to Jesus.. I’m happy withthat.. because I already been there and done that.. being mocked and laughed at makes my faithstrong, because I’m experiencing what those who put their faith in Jesus prior the same thing.. Jesus said to rejoice and if you are not being persecuted for your stand for Jesus.. then what does that make you?

 

 

First, I thought that the Creation Museum was misleading even when  I first heard of it in 2007; my brother and I laughed ourselves silly over it. Since the video was correcting the scientific mistakes…well, I can hardly attack the video maker for that. I might not agree with her views entirely, but she wasn’t attacking Christ, simply those who claim to follow him but fail to exercise their common sense and then try to force others to believe exactly what they believe as well. I told you to read more information, as it was pretty obvious by then that you knew nothing about evolution (not that you know anything now).

 

At any rate, as that screenshot proves, you were simply judgemental and assumed I was arrogant after I told you to read more.

 

You think calling someone arrogant is not an insult? Conceited, condescension, intolerable insolence; those terms were from the definitions you posted. How are those not insulting? Forget the science textbooks. You’d be better off with a dictionary. Once you’ve managed to figure out what words you can use and what words you can’t in a certain situation, then you can argue.

 

Must you resort to quoting? Firstly, Peter was human. His memory could have been faulty, and although he was an eyewitness to Jesus’ miracles and teachings, Jesus often refuted the teachings of the Old Testament. Remember the handwashing incident? So, as ArianneG summed up nicely, I believe in what came out of Christ’s mouth, not Paul, Peter, James, Timothy etc. If they can make up the idea of Purgatory to get people to go and fight in the Crusades, then they can make up a lot of other stuff.

 

You’re right, the Bible is a historical text, and as a history student, we’re taught to treat every text with some degree of skepticism. I, for one, do not believe that the God of Love told the Israelites to massacre the Canaanites. How do you justify that, Egoeimi? You keep on telling me that my interpretation of the Bible is wrong. So tell me, how can God, who had just given the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’, tell His people to massacre the Canaanites, down to the very last child?

 

No, perhaps an atheist society wouldn’t be all that peaceful, but you are using your religion to say that you are better than others. That simply spreads more dissension amongst us, and I tell you this; we don’t need it. As I’ve said over and over again, I don’t care what a person believes as long as they don’t ram their beliefs down my throat and can respect me for what I am. Maybe by your standards, Mohammed was not a prophet, but since he turned the whole of Arabia to God, I say he is. I might disagree with him on some aspects, but I respect him and the religion that he set up for God.

 

I used to believe that Mohammed was not a prophet, but then I changed my mind after reading about and studying Islam. I’ve been brought up with the Christian faith, but it doesn’t mean I have to accept everything that my elders tell me. Jesus never accepted all the traditions.

 

No, a person with a PhD might be more knowledgeable, but knowledge does not equal wisdom or intelligence. I have the potential to get a PhD. Just because I haven’t gotten one yet doesn’t mean I am less intelligent. It just means I have less experience in the area. Once again, I recommend a dictionary with clear concise definitions.

 

In evolutionary terms, the red bioluminescent light might have developed because of mutations in the creatures’ DNA, which caused some changes in their chemical production. These creatures use this light for communicating with each other and identifying others of their own species since most other sea creatures cannot detect such a light, which is important for their survival. Perhaps the creature with the best light gets the best mates, thus passing on good genes for the next generation. The lights can also attract prey that can detect the red light, and that aids the survival of the species as well. This feature evolved because the first one to show this mutation in its phenotype managed to survive and mate with others of its species, thus passing on the beneficial mutant gene onto the next generation. It might not have shown up immediately in the next generation, as the gene could have been recessive, but over a great many years, more of the creatures with bioluminescent red light in their phenotype (meaning that, if the gene for red light was a recessive gene, they were homogenous), more and more of their offspring began to show this trait in the phenotype, and the ones without the red light now have an evolutionary disadvantage, so they began to die out because they couldn’t compete with their counterparts with red light. Give it a few million years, and every single creature of the species has inherited the gene for red light.  

There, I hope you understood that, Egoeimi, because that’s the sort of answer a high school student has to write for their biology exam, and it might be too confusing for you.

 

I believe in free will. All the prophets are free to choose what they want to say and do. They might have to live with the consequences afterwards, but they made choices. They weren’t God’s puppets. You do know that ‘different beliefs’ does not automatically make someone wicked, right? The ‘proper’ beliefs don’t automatically make someone a good person either. It’s what you do that counts. I don’t see how the sheep and goats lecture has anything to do with our present topic.

 

The way Adam lay with his wife is symbolic of marriage and what happens after it. This is God saying that such an activity is right for a man and a woman who are completely committed to each other, and that people should reproduce for the sake of the species’ survival. There were those who believed in abstinence in those days, and that was not good for survival. Or, it could be a Hebrew myth.

 

You think I have not been persecuted for my beliefs? Look in the mirror. There stands one of my persecutors. I practise the Christ’s teachings of rationality, love and acceptance, and people persecute me for that.

 

And here are some random quotes from Egoeimi: I’m in bold.

  

 

Experimental Observations Only Yes, Egoeimi. And since creationism cannot be proven by experimentation, what exactly are you trying to say?
    ”Some lame defenders of evolutionism claim that one needs a degree in biology to refute the origins of life by chance.
    All evolutionists need to do is demonstrate how life can naturally come from non-life. Ambiogenesis is not evolution. Get it through your head! That’s why I’ve always said that God created life, and then let the living organisms evolve into the organisms we see today. But only experimental observations please. Leave your imaginations and dreams at the door.” Yes, Egoeimi. Leave your daydreams at the door.

Patrick D. McGuire, From an amazon.com review of ‘Not by Chance: Shattering the Modern Theory of Evolution’ by Lee M. Spetner

The Big Bang and Guano
    ”On July 12, an abandoned ranger headquarters at Tahquamenon Falls State Park blew sky-high, sending debris a hundred feet into the atmosphere and alarming campers fourteen miles away.
    
    The explosion now has been traced to bat manure that for decades had been generating methane gas until in mid-July it became highly volatile and – kaboom!
    
    Scientists believe that a similar cataclysm 15 billion years ago gave us the beginnings of the universe, though even scientists cannot account for those early bats, There are possible explanations for how the bat evolved. It was a land mammal to start off with. Mutation created a gene for webbed fingers. This gene got enhanced over millions of years and now code for the wings you see today. and for those of a religious disposition a world created by bat dung is too depressing to contemplate.” You know, no one ever said the world was created by bat dung. What is this argument trying to say?

‘The American Spectator’, Sept. 1993, pp. 8,9

 

 

Ego-eimi, are you still trying to say that you have your own opinions? This random quoting makes you look:

a) too lazy to formulate your own arguments

b) lack the language to formulate your own arguments

c) love the copy and paste function or

d) all of the above

 

 

 

The Great YouTube Debate 7

Egoeimi replied, and it’s even more laughable than usual. He seems to love ‘LOL’ a lot. Maybe he thinks it makes him look cool?

You said:

I did tell you how to comment on my blog entries. It was in that message which you didn’t bother to read.

My response:

I didn’t bother to read futher because of the put downs about my spelling as you continue as it appears to do so…. who cares.. I looked at Amazon.com the other day and read some reviews on a product I was thinking about buying and there were all kinds of spelling errors or grammactical mistakes.. but I’m not going to email a person.. to be critical of their spelling.. their not my responsibility LOL neither is it yours.

You said:

And I can tell you that you cannot be certain that God is on your side. For all you know, He could be on my side, or He could be watching us both with disapproval. You simply cannot know. As for truly reborn Christians having the mind of Christ? Well, all I can say is that you’re most definitely not truly reborn. You’re just under the illusion that you are. You might think that you think the same way as Jesus does. I beg to differ, for Jesus was never so rude as to call someone arrogant on their first exchange, nor does he say anything along the lines of ‘if you don’t completely believe in the Bible, despite all reason, then you’re not my follower and I shun you’. You’re just a fanatic, as I’ve said.

My reply:

You are making a huge assumption.. either you are a christian or not. you should know that God supports those that support Him.. God backs those who speak for Him.. not those who speak against Him. God validated the Apostles and the OT Prophets.. (The Off-Topic Prophets? What the hell are those?) not once will u find in the Bible God not supporting those who support Him. In fact God told Abraham He would curse those who cursed Abraham.. or bless those who blessed Abraham. Because Abraham after all is the father of faith who demonstrated his faith in God.. so God is on the side of those who demonstrate faith in Him.. that is Scriptural. God isn’t supporting those that disagree with what is already reveal in the Bible which we will be debating your support for Evolution and man evoling rather than God created man.

And your mistatement of reborn.. no it’s Born Again.. and you obviously don’t pay attention to the warning given in the Bible about something you can’t judge.. First off.. u can’t judge that because u are not around me.. ask people that are my closeest friends and those that knew me prior to my converstion.. u can question if u choose. like I question your converstion when u appear to support universalism, and evolution to name a few things..not to mention casting doubt on the bible exactly like the Atheist do..

You also said:

I beg to differ, for Jesus was never so rude as to call someone arrogant on their first exchange, nor does he say anything along the lines of ‘if you don’t completely believe in the Bible, despite all reason, then you’re not my follower and I shun you’. You’re just a fanatic, as I’ve said

My response:

If you call my abrasiveness rude… no that’s not being rude because I challenge and disagree with you and do it with a sarcastic tone.. God has and demonstrated that He can and will be sarcastic at times to make a point.. no one is going to call God arrogant.

And about the bible.. Jesus said and I”ll paraphrase it.. or I’ll get the text for you and I quote “man doesn’t live on bread alone but off of every word that percedes out of the mouth of God”

That means that everywhere God speaks thru the people He ordained.. weather it be Moses, Paul, Peter, James, Isiah, Amos, Solomon.. and the list go’s on.. u are suppose to pay attention to. Many people like athiest and u are demonstrating the same thing.. that man wrote the bible and therefore it’s not God speaking.. well u would do well to learn that Christ has made it clear and thru out the bible if u really have studied it.. uses people and their words are acutally the words of God.. For example.. God made it clear to the Prophet Jeremiah that He would put His words in Jeremiah’s mouth.. did u know that.. when Jeremiah prophecied against I believe it was Judah.. about God’s judgements they came true 100%.. that is an example and God did that will all those He selected to speak for Him.. weather it be a Prophet (OT) or Apostle (NT). Weather u agree or not isn’t my problem. but that is how God used people when it comes to that dispensation.

You said:

You know, there is no ‘proper way’ to interpret literature and historical texts. Any new approach is appreciated, if you’re a scholar. If I kept on looking at things from the same angle, then I would be regurgitating what others have already said. That’s not interpreting; that’s called being a broken record. My approach shows that I’m actually thinking, and not just using other people’s arguments. Just because someone has a Ph’D doesn’t mean that their view is more valid than mine. I can choose not to believe them, and come up with my own views.

My response:

I disagree.. there is a correct and wrong way to interpret literature and historical texts. There are people who study the language and cultures of the day and that is where theologians come in.. and it’s acutally Scriptual that God gifts people to be teachers.. because anyone that gets saved.. they are babes and need to be taught until they mature. LIke I have observed many times.. people will pretext the bible without understanding the culture of the day, or the language differences.. Like I said.. in my country i can say “its raining cats and dogs outside”. I can use that figure of speech to communicate a truth about raining very hard outside.. but to someone in Korea.. they wouldn’t have a clue.. and I see that as your approach when I post on your forum we will go back and forth.. u either will listen or u wont.

And are u willing to say that u are sounding like a broken record for repeating what evolutionary scientist say about evolution being true? Repeating something is ok.. as long as its true.. I will continue to repeat what Jesus says.. and that isn’t a broken record.. u are applying that to perhaps things u disagree with that people bring up.. but it’s hardly a broken record depending on who it is.. LOL Paul, Peter many of the Apostles repeated things Jesus said.. that isn’t a broken record.

About Ph’d.. yes it does mean their view is more valid then yours.. because u would be hypocritical if u say that a ph’d evolutionist in genetics view is more valid then mine.. are you? Of course not.. so watch what u say.. anyone that has a Ph’D means they have more advance study in what ever the subject. and if u are not learned in Hebrew, Greek, or Aramiac.. then u have to look at what those that studied and went to school for it.. they do hold weight. but if u are going to fly by the seat of your pants then of course u can come up with anything and pretext.. because u are not paying attention to what the culture understood what was being said…

And yeah. it’s obvious that u have come up believing what u choose and rejecting sound interpetation of the language of the day.

And u mentioned that I don’t think for myself.. well I do.. I have asked for example evolutionist to explain to me the evolution of red biolumeniscents in sea creatures where there is no light.. and none have explained it.. evolution teaches that things evolved over millions of years. but u won’t find that in any animals prior to what we see today… do u care to give it a shot then.. since I after all DON’T THINK FOR MYSELF.

You said:

Well, I’ll see you at the blog then, and if you don’t mind, I’d rather you didn’t try and use Paul’s teachings on me. I doubt him the way I doubt any theologian, and see him as more of a scholar than a messenger of God. Although, I must say, he argues a lot more eloquently than you do.

My reply:

Anyone is fair game if they are speaking truth.. God choose Paul, like Peter, James or any of the other Apostles.. so you should have a problem with God.. after all.. Paul wrote more in the NT then any other Apostle.. and he is an messenger of God.. to the Gentiles.. Paul is well know to be the Aposlte to the Gentiles and Peter was the Apostle to the Jews.. they had two groups that they were telling the Gosple to.. and Paul was choosen by Jesus.

And if you doubt those that studied the text..and language and culture of the day… then why are u listening to Ph’D scientist who believe in evolution? Why are u believe in those who are well educated about genetics when they argue for evolution of man? It’s quite hypocritical that you will accept the arguments and repeat those arguments about evolution being true but won’t listen to the people God ordained?

If that is the case.. then why would u want to debate, if u are not going to listen to sound ;understanding of the text?

Just face it, Ego-eimi, you’re afraid of me because I’m the wee child who can make you look like an utter fool. You’re a coward if you can’t even fight in virtual public.

You are a hypocrite, I’ll say that again. You say I can’t judge you because I don’t know you. Fair enough. However, you wrote this on our first exchange, when I told you to read a bit more before you tried to refute evolution:

You were the one who first called me ‘arrogant’. Yes, you were judging my character when you’d only met me on the internet once, and I was naught but a name with a message beneath it. So, in fact, you are saying, “Don’t judge me, but I’m free to judge you all I want because it’s the right judgement.” Yeah, that shows you’re a truly born again Christian with the mind of Christ.

“we will be debating your support for Evolution and man evoling rather than God created man.”

I will be arguing for the evolution of human beings, thank you very much, not just man.

You are so certain that every word of the Bible is the word of God. Have you any proof? You say our theoretical proof for evolution isn’t proper proof, so where’s your proper proof that the Bible was actually dictated to humans by God? You have no such proof. You must think the ancient world was Utopia, Ego-eimi, where people didn’t lie and didn’t use God to justify their evil acts. Did God really tell the Israelites to massacre the Canaanites, down to the very last child? I doubt it, especially he’d just given them that simple commandment which said, ‘Thou shalt not kill.’

If the words of every prophet was actually written down correctly and validated by God, then perhaps I should believe every single word of the Qur’an as well, because Mohammed was a prophet. How do you know that every single prophet spoke the absolute truth and that they didn’t somehow misinterpret information? You don’t; it’s leap of faith, and I’m not willing to take that leap without some serious rational analytical thinking. Jeremiah might have been telling the truth, but would every prophet be like him and tell the absolute truth? And Paul was simply writing down his views. They could be wrong. How can you prove anything? Are you going to say that you know Paul was completely right because you have the mind of Christ, and since you think he’s right, then Christ must surely agree with you? Just because someone is ordained doesn’t mean that they don’t make mistakes. They’re still human.

If Christianity means discriminating against people of other beliefs, and universalism means getting along with everybody and spreading peace, then I’ll gladly be a universalist, Ego-eimi. A religion which spreads dissension, discrimination and hatred is not one which I want to be part of. And how is your attitude spreading Christ’s love?

Yes, I’m a broken record for declaring that evolution makes more sense than creationism. However, I’m at least not quoting anyone, and adding my own arguments as to why I believe that evolution actually happened and is compatible with religion. Which brings me to the ‘correct way’ to interpret historical texts, whether they are secular or  religious. Just because someone has a Ph’D doesn’t mean they’re smarter than me. If we all just deferred to people with Ph’Ds, then no one would ever get new ideas. We’d still be living in the dark ages, believing that ”God has revealed the truth through religion. Reason can be used to prove the truth. However, if reason contradicts religion, then reason is obsolete.” Wait, you still believe that twelfth century teaching, don’t you?  

I say other people’s views are more valid than yours because they can argue and defend their views properly. As a friendly person told me (thanks for this, Assentia), Language and thought processes go hand in hand. Inability to use language properly shows that your thought processes are malfunctioning. If you have to resort to arguments such as ‘I’ve got the mind of Christ’ and ‘God is on my side’, then your views are probably not very valid. As I’ve said, use the evidence for evolution and turn it against evolution. But I think it might take someone with more brain power to do it. It won’t be very pleasant to hear the someone’s head exploded because they were thinking too hard and their brain just couldn’t deal with it.

So come on, defend your faith. You said in your last reply that you’re never a coward when it comes to defending what you believe. So come and defend it now, or you will be a coward in front of the world. I won’t even have to say it.

Another Religious Rant

I’m getting really really sick of strict fundamentalist religious views. Actually, they’re getting me overexcited and pumping me full of adrenaline so that I want to scream and hit something. I cannot believe that this day and age, there are still people who believe in the twelfth century way of looking at the world, namely, scholasticism, which states that ‘God revealed Truth to Man through religion (Christianity was the only proper religion to them), and religion can be proved by reason. However, if religion and reason contradict each other, then reason is obsolete.’ I’d thought that we had progressed beyond that. Apparently, I was very very wrong, and much too optimistic. Just a note to people who believe this way of looking at the world; if you are arguing with people who don’t believe it, quoting the Bible is not going to change their mind, so just don’t bother unless you can come up with concrete factual scientific evidence to go with it. Vague paintings in caves which look like they can be vertebrates and which some claim are depictions of dinosaurs do not count.

Extremist Christian views have even infiltrated into the atheist literature forum which I frequent. Of course I couldn’t help myself and had to defend every other religion which the extreme Christian was attacking. Islam is not wrong; merely different. Hinduism might range from polytheistic to monotheistic, but it still has some very applicable and legitimate philosophies. Atheism, while it promotes godlessness, also promotes rational thinking which is not confined by some guy’s interpretation of God. And face it; it’s always some guy’s interpretation of God, and not some girl’s.

There is a strange belief that the Bible has been passed down, unchanged, for six thousand years. Surely there must be a few human errors in there by now, through all the translations, Hebrew propaganda (admit it; every culture has its own brand of propaganda to justify their bad deeds and to make it look better than everyone else’s.), Roman propaganda, and everything else the Bible has gone through. I mentioned that to a Christian who took the Bible word for word, and s/he replied, “Show me the proof. The manuscripts don’t say so.”

So I said, “You do know that the first manuscripts of the Bible would have disintegrated into dust by now, don’t you?” There was another point I forgot to mention: early Hebrews had an oral culture.

I also told them that I believe the Bible is a book of symbols, and used the example about forgiving people seventy seven times, and they said, “You’re not a Christian! You’re an atheist!”

To which I replied, “I’d be a pretty odd atheist; I believe in God.” Some people need to learn the true meaning of words.

There were several other points in my argument: The Bible cannot be taken literally because it was written by men. Even Moses and St. Paul were men, and therefore, fallible. Therefore, I cannot take their word as the word of God.