The Great YouTube Debate 7

Ego-eimi’s got his own blog and he’s posting his replies there; I thought I’d paste his response here to make things easier and to add to the continuity:

ok I’m here so lets get it on.. before I get into talking about Genesis.. I guess I need to address these comments you made in the Great Debate. 

 

You said:

 

You were the one who first called me ‘arrogant’. Yes, you were judging my character when you’d only met me on the internet once, and I was naught but a name witha message beneathit. So, in fact, you are saying, “Don’t judge me, but I’m free to judge you all I want because it’s the right judgement.” Yeah, that shows you’re a truly born again Christian with the mind of Christ.

 

My Reply:

 

The defining the different meanings of arrogance first:

 

arrogant implies a claiming for oneself of more consideration or importance than is warranted <a conceited and arrogant executive>. haughty suggests a consciousness of superior birth or position <a haughty aristocrat>. lordly implies pomposity or an arrogant display of power <a lordly condescension>. insolent implies contemptuous haughtiness <ignored by an insolent waiter>. overbearing suggests a tyrannical manner or an intolerable insolence <an overbearing supervisor>. supercilious implies a cool, patronizing haughtiness <an aloof and supercilious manner>. disdainful suggests a more active and openly scornful superciliousness <disdainful of their social inferiors>.

 

When I see #1.. evolutionist attacking Christians for their belief in creation when #1, they don’t have to believe it.. just state way you don’t believe it.. but don’t start insulting people and think that you are more superior an individual that is arrogance.  If you notice the video is an evolutionist attacking the idea of the Creation Museum.. if neo’s were simple saying why without resorting to saying we are ignorant, etc, etc.. then I wouldn’t call them arrogant… If you had been around awhile, every neo faith believe has always, always 100% resorted to name calling, saying someone is ignorant, stupid, a moron, and the list go’s on and on.. for what?  You have shown that you are no different. 

 

 

 

You said:

 

 

You are so certain that every word of the Bible is the word of God. Have you any proof? You say our theoretical proof for evolution isn’t proper proof, so where’s your proper proof that the Bible was actually dictated to humans by God? You have no such proof. You must think the ancient world was Utopia, Ego-eimi, where people didn’t lie and didn’t use God to justify their evil acts. Did God really tell the Israelites to massacre the Canaanites, down to the very last child? I doubt it, especially he’d just given them that simple commandment which said, ‘Thou shalt not kill.’

 

My reply:

 

I can’t believe you claim to be a Christian when you ask how do we know that God dictated the what He wanted said to those who followed Him.

 

#1.. Let me quote what Peter said:  2 Peter 1:16

We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

 

#2 Let me quote more of what the Apostle Paul said in his letters to the Apostle Timothy: 

 

1 Timothy 4:7

Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly.

 

IN Titus:

 

13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth. 15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.

 

Now if you look at that text.. if doesn’t prove nothing yet.. but I will add.. based on the science of archeology… it’s a fact the bible is a historical text.. King Herod verified… the pool of Besadaalong with thsi also

 

Jesus would be born of a virgin Isaiah 7:14, “Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

Fulfilled in Matt. 1:18,25, “This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary…was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit… But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.”

 

To not take up more and more space.. I ask you.. Peter. .was an eyewitness of what Jesus did.. it’s a fact that people they mentioned in the Gospels existed.. the Apostles recorded what Jesus said about Scripture.. Paul wrote that All Scripture is God breathed.. Jesus told them not to lie.. the Prophecies which I only mentioned one.. the fact that archeology has never contradicted the bible and has only continued to verify it.. that proves that it’s inspired, because they witnesses the Jesus that you are suppose to believe and have faith in.. so my premise is simple

 

1.  Jesus existed

2.  Jesus preformed miracles

3.  Jesus had eyewitnesses to the miracles

4.  Even Jesus enemies saw the miracles and didnt’ write against it as false

5.  Jesus said and talked about the Word of God and living by the Word of God

6.  Therefore the Bible is the Word of God

 

Because Jesus Himself.. demonstrated who he was in front of real people.. told them to go and preach the Gospel.. and validated them by giving them power to do miracles just like the pattern has been thru out the bible OT Prophets and Apostles were given power to demonstrate..

 

So u tell me how it’s not Inspired when they witnessed the one prophecied about.. saw Him do miracles as was prophesied that Jesus would do, they died for it.. when they simply could have denied all of it to live, and Jesus Himself gave them Authoirty, which u think ordaination means nothing.. well when Jesus does to someone, it suppose to mean something…

 

You said..

 

If the words of every prophet was actually written down correctly and validated by God, then perhaps I should believe every single word of the Qur’an as well, because Mohammed was a prophet.

 

 

My reply:

 

No Mohammed isn’t a prophet by biblical standards.. and u are suppose to know this.. how long have u been a Christian?  The rules for a Prophet are laid out in Scripture.

 

OT Prophets.. this is another thing that validates them as speaking the very words of God, and I already gave you an example u didn’t address.. If a Prophet said anything that God said would happen if Israel for example didn’t repent.. if it didn’t come true 100% they didn’t hear from God, but if it did then they did speak the words of God.  The prophecies about Jesus like His virgin birth, Jesus was born of a virgin, His mother was looked upon as unclean because she was preganant before marriage.. and Jesus was called a bastard if you don’t know what is said in Jewish history.  And how do we know she was a virgin.. well it’s simple.. it was prophecied coupled with Jesus’ miracles.. if Jesus wasn’t born of a virgin, that would make God a liar which the bible says God can’t do.. and the miracles validate that He was indeed the one.. and people friends and foes saw Jesus doing the miracles… so what am I suppose to reject it.. give me a good reason to reject it.. again, when there were eyewitnesses to the miracles which validate Jesus and if He wasn’t virgin born, then He would be invalidated as the Messiah..

 

So to say.. Mohammad wasn’t a Prophet.. not by the biblical standards He didn’t do Miracles like the Apostles.. and the Quran speaks against Jesus as Resurrected.. therefore why would u a so called Christian even try to use it to make your point against the Bible?

 

You said:  How do you know that every single prophet spoke the absolute truth and that they didn’t somehow misinterpret information?

 

My reply:

 

Already addressed it.. if they spoke for God it had to happen 100%, if they didn’t it was false.  Anyone who exams the Scripture the Dead Sea Scrolls and see the verses mentioned in Isiah about Jesus.. knowing those things were written hundreds of years prior and they happened the way God said it.. then it’s from God.. and if you read the OT and what the Prophets said.. it’s consitent all the way thru..  God doesn’t change.. how He validates people…

 

You said:

You must think the ancient world was Utopia, Ego-eimi, where people didn’t lie and didn’t use God to justify their evil acts. Did God really tell the Israelites to massacre the Canaanites, down to the very last child? I doubt it, especially he’d just given them that simple commandment which said, ‘Thou shalt not kill.’

 

 

My reply:

 

I never said people don’t use God to justify their behavior.. why didn’t u quote so everyone could see the verse I quote about people thinking they were doing things in the name of the Lord when we were talking about the Crusades?  Why did u leave that out?  You give the appearance that I didn’t address that in your forum..

 

About Moses ordingthe Israelites to go to war with the Canaanites.  Yes God would order that.. remember.. God sent the Flood that killed more people than that.. so why would I not think that?  Second.. the people of the day like Israel lived under a ban.. which means that when they went to war in those times tribes would often kill who villiages.. and secondly from what I have studied about the Cutlureof the day Jewish people.. God always gave nations time to repent.. God never, ever sent Israel to war without giving a nation a chance.. and thirdly, you don’t know either that.. the only ones killed when it says Israel killed all.. it’s not talking about all in the sense u are thinking.. it’s all those who choose to fight Israel.. you do realize that woman and young children went withIsrael.. but also that children there are also several views.. some see those children as of fighting age the ones that died. some see it as if God chooses He can take life at any age, b/c He created it..my view is there were woman and very young children who were not corrupted were spared and lived as aliens with Israel.. ever heard of Rahab?  A non-Jew… God took in those that accepted Him. and those that rejected Him in that time period when Israel was going to the Promised Land.. that was that time period..

 

And why are you trying to defend God.. God is well aware of what People would say reading the Old Testament?  God needs no defending.. the Gospel message is offensive… and that needs no defense.. so if you are trying to say your God is mercyful, not Vengiful, then you are ignoring a whole lot of what is to happen on Judgement day.. when God will judge the wicked.. I”m not worried about what people think of God and what God ordered.. why are you?

 

 

 

You said:

 

Jeremiah might have been telling the truth, but would every prophet be like him and tell the absolute truth? And Paul was simply writing down his views. They could be wrong. How can you prove anything? Are you going to say that you know Paul was completely right because you have the mind of Christ, and since you think he’s right, then Christ must surely agree with you? Just because someone is ordained doesn’t mean that they don’t make mistakes. They’re still human.

 

My reply:

You are making an assumption which you can.. asking question that could have someone been wrong.. of course.. but when it comes to God telling those who He selects as when they Prophecied.. or said what God will do if someone doesn’t repent.. that isn’t wrong but truth as long as if it happened as they said God said it.. that eleminates error.  Same thing with Paul it applies, if he said anything that God said, it has to happen 100%, that is how you eliminate the Jim Jones and the David Koresh’s.  And I didn’t say Paul was completely right.. Paul got into arguments with other Apostles they had disputes.. but that doesn’t remove the fact that God can use ordinary people, and it is you that sounds like an unbeliever lacking faith in God’s abilities to use people?  Do you doubt God can use people since you have claimed to be a Christian?  Can God exercise the use of people if they are willing to be used by Him?

 

and yeah.. ordaintion doesn’t eliminate make a sinful mistake.. why do you think 1 John 1:9 is there for all Christians to see?  Peter denied Jesus 3 times.. but Jesus still used Him.. your problem seems to be that yes we are mistake prone.. but that doesn’t mean we can’t communicate God’s truth, one has nothing to do with the other.. it doesn’t mean just because you tell a lie at one moment that you can’t ever speak truth…. God commanded repentance, but God also commanded being truthful to your neighbor, and they were truthful when it came to communicating things about Jesus, God, Faith, the Holy Spirit.. why would they lie about Jesus? Why would they lie about God?  When there is warnings of misleading people like Jesus said about misleading children?  There is a consiquence.

 

 

 

You said:

 

If Christianity means discriminating against people of other beliefs, and universalism means getting along with everybody and spreading peace, then I’ll gladly be a universalist, Ego-eimi

 

My reply:

 

Then what are you going to say or what would you say to Jesus when He clearly said that He is the truth, the way and the Life, no one comes to the Father except thru Him?  Are you going to say John lied then about what Jesus said, when John was an eyewitness to Jesus?  Does that mean Jesus is a bioget?  Does that mean Jesus isn’t peaceful?  No.. but Jesus Himself, said He came to bring division, do you know where that is even written in the Bible?  Jesus came to seperate the sheep from the goats.. meaning the wicked from the richteous, Jesus came to get those who will and are willing to repent.. that is what it is weater I like it or not.  But what would you say to Him, because Jesus isn’t a universalilst.. and that makes me question your faith, why would you go against Jesus. unless you are going to call people lies without justification, u are assuming that Prophets or Apostles lied, withproving it.. so why don’t you prove John lied.. I believe John told the truth about Jesus being the only way to Heaven, because He too witnessed miracles done by Jesus so what’s the justification for lying?

 

 

 

You said:

 

A religion which spreads dissension, discrimination and hatred is not one which I want to be part of. And how is your attitude spreading Christ’s love?

 

My reply:

 

LOL.. if society was all atheistic, guess what there will still be dissension, discrimination and hatred.  Look you have got to be kidding if you think that Christianity is the cause of any of those things.. you can look to the late communist country of Russia, and see that there was dissenstion in that country.  I have been discriminated against for several reasons, by non-religouspeople… so if you are saying you don’t want to be a part of a faith because of those things, then where are you giong to go live?  Because those things weather a person is white, black, green, a Muslim, a Buddist, an Atheist, there will always be someone out there with a population of 6.5 billion people that is non-religousthat will do one of those things.. heck, I’m married, and me and my wife have experience dissension between each other.. i had that withmy sister growing up, u can’t avoid it, and faithsometimes or not has nothing to do with it.

 

 

 

You said:

 

Yes, I’m a broken record for declaring that evolution makes more sense than creationism. However, I’m at least not quoting anyone, and adding my own arguments as to why I believe that evolution actually happened and is compatible with religion. Which brings me to the ‘correct way’ to interpret historical texts, whether they are secular or  religious. Just because someone has a Ph’D doesn’t mean they’re smarter than me. If we all just deferred to people with Ph’Ds, then no one would ever get new ideas. We’d still be living in the dark ages, believing that ”God has revealed the truth through religion. Reason can be used to prove the truth. However, if reason contradicts religion, then reason is obsolete.” Wait, you still believe that twelfth century teaching, don’t you? 

 

My reply:

 

Are you serious.. just because someone has a Ph’D doesn’t mean they’re smarter than you?  Really.. so does that mean that a Doctor who has a Ph’d in cardiology isn’t smarter than you in that context?  How about oncology?  You need to make a comment when it comes to Ph’d’s in proper context.. yes they are smarter than you which ever the context.. Yes an evolutionary Ph’d in genetics is smarter than me.. that’s why I quote a ph’dcreationist with the same degree from a major university against it.

 

But I do come up with my own ideas and see that creation makes more sense than evolution.  I asked you the other day a question you didn’t even answer based on your own words that you like to think for yourself, but you didn’t address in the context of evoution of why it’s explained in the context of it better then creation.  So I’ll ask again.. explain in your own terms how red bioluminescent light isn’t seen prior to what we see today which it’s something an animals has to have deep in the ocean where there is no light.. explain to me. how it survived, what was it’s way of getting food while this was developing,, where is the animal it came from that had this feature in development.. if you are going to walk the walk, then talk the talk and explain to me how evoution explains this better than evolution?

 

 

 

What 12th century teaching are you speaking of?

 

And if that is how you interpet historical text.. then that is why you are in much error.. about Genesis.

 

You say Adam is symbolic.. or that Genesis is symbolic when it comes to creation.

 

Ok..

 

Then tell me how this is symbolic when there is no appearance of symbolic language used and I’ll quote several verses and by the way.. u didn’t address the sin question… If Adam is a symbolic person, then that means sin is symbolic, and Jesus had no reason to die for sins.. or do you not know why Jesus came?

 

Here are some verses:

Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

 

The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.

 

Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man.”

 

I quoted a few verses referencing to Adam.. now how is it that Adam lay with his wife symbolic?  It’s the same Adam that God created in the verses preceding it.. Why would God makes garments for a symbolic person?  ARe you going to call Moses a liar without justification?  Adam named his wife Eve, how is that symbolic language compared to your misuse of Jesus answering Matt. question about seventy times seven in the proper context of forgivness which they were talking about..

 

And in ending..

 

What is your purpose.. to entertain yourself.. I notice that your comment in the end and I quote

 

“So come on, defend your faith. You said in your last reply that you’re never a coward when it comes to defending what you believe. So come and defend it now, or you will be a coward in front of the world. I won’t even have to say it.”

 

What?  is this a game to you?  A teenager having fun?  Seeing how many people will jump on your bandwagon?  See how many people like it has been as I have read some comments from onlookers the same old thing of mocking a Christian for believing in the Bible which that is what a Actual Christian does in comparison to you which you are misleading people away from the bible, which there is warnings against. 

 

I didn’t come here to show the world I”m not afraid.. i’mnot. but if someone gets some help, weather it be one person that turns to Jesus.. I’m happy withthat.. because I already been there and done that.. being mocked and laughed at makes my faithstrong, because I’m experiencing what those who put their faith in Jesus prior the same thing.. Jesus said to rejoice and if you are not being persecuted for your stand for Jesus.. then what does that make you?

 

 

First, I thought that the Creation Museum was misleading even when  I first heard of it in 2007; my brother and I laughed ourselves silly over it. Since the video was correcting the scientific mistakes…well, I can hardly attack the video maker for that. I might not agree with her views entirely, but she wasn’t attacking Christ, simply those who claim to follow him but fail to exercise their common sense and then try to force others to believe exactly what they believe as well. I told you to read more information, as it was pretty obvious by then that you knew nothing about evolution (not that you know anything now).

 

At any rate, as that screenshot proves, you were simply judgemental and assumed I was arrogant after I told you to read more.

 

You think calling someone arrogant is not an insult? Conceited, condescension, intolerable insolence; those terms were from the definitions you posted. How are those not insulting? Forget the science textbooks. You’d be better off with a dictionary. Once you’ve managed to figure out what words you can use and what words you can’t in a certain situation, then you can argue.

 

Must you resort to quoting? Firstly, Peter was human. His memory could have been faulty, and although he was an eyewitness to Jesus’ miracles and teachings, Jesus often refuted the teachings of the Old Testament. Remember the handwashing incident? So, as ArianneG summed up nicely, I believe in what came out of Christ’s mouth, not Paul, Peter, James, Timothy etc. If they can make up the idea of Purgatory to get people to go and fight in the Crusades, then they can make up a lot of other stuff.

 

You’re right, the Bible is a historical text, and as a history student, we’re taught to treat every text with some degree of skepticism. I, for one, do not believe that the God of Love told the Israelites to massacre the Canaanites. How do you justify that, Egoeimi? You keep on telling me that my interpretation of the Bible is wrong. So tell me, how can God, who had just given the commandment ‘Thou shalt not kill’, tell His people to massacre the Canaanites, down to the very last child?

 

No, perhaps an atheist society wouldn’t be all that peaceful, but you are using your religion to say that you are better than others. That simply spreads more dissension amongst us, and I tell you this; we don’t need it. As I’ve said over and over again, I don’t care what a person believes as long as they don’t ram their beliefs down my throat and can respect me for what I am. Maybe by your standards, Mohammed was not a prophet, but since he turned the whole of Arabia to God, I say he is. I might disagree with him on some aspects, but I respect him and the religion that he set up for God.

 

I used to believe that Mohammed was not a prophet, but then I changed my mind after reading about and studying Islam. I’ve been brought up with the Christian faith, but it doesn’t mean I have to accept everything that my elders tell me. Jesus never accepted all the traditions.

 

No, a person with a PhD might be more knowledgeable, but knowledge does not equal wisdom or intelligence. I have the potential to get a PhD. Just because I haven’t gotten one yet doesn’t mean I am less intelligent. It just means I have less experience in the area. Once again, I recommend a dictionary with clear concise definitions.

 

In evolutionary terms, the red bioluminescent light might have developed because of mutations in the creatures’ DNA, which caused some changes in their chemical production. These creatures use this light for communicating with each other and identifying others of their own species since most other sea creatures cannot detect such a light, which is important for their survival. Perhaps the creature with the best light gets the best mates, thus passing on good genes for the next generation. The lights can also attract prey that can detect the red light, and that aids the survival of the species as well. This feature evolved because the first one to show this mutation in its phenotype managed to survive and mate with others of its species, thus passing on the beneficial mutant gene onto the next generation. It might not have shown up immediately in the next generation, as the gene could have been recessive, but over a great many years, more of the creatures with bioluminescent red light in their phenotype (meaning that, if the gene for red light was a recessive gene, they were homogenous), more and more of their offspring began to show this trait in the phenotype, and the ones without the red light now have an evolutionary disadvantage, so they began to die out because they couldn’t compete with their counterparts with red light. Give it a few million years, and every single creature of the species has inherited the gene for red light.  

There, I hope you understood that, Egoeimi, because that’s the sort of answer a high school student has to write for their biology exam, and it might be too confusing for you.

 

I believe in free will. All the prophets are free to choose what they want to say and do. They might have to live with the consequences afterwards, but they made choices. They weren’t God’s puppets. You do know that ‘different beliefs’ does not automatically make someone wicked, right? The ‘proper’ beliefs don’t automatically make someone a good person either. It’s what you do that counts. I don’t see how the sheep and goats lecture has anything to do with our present topic.

 

The way Adam lay with his wife is symbolic of marriage and what happens after it. This is God saying that such an activity is right for a man and a woman who are completely committed to each other, and that people should reproduce for the sake of the species’ survival. There were those who believed in abstinence in those days, and that was not good for survival. Or, it could be a Hebrew myth.

 

You think I have not been persecuted for my beliefs? Look in the mirror. There stands one of my persecutors. I practise the Christ’s teachings of rationality, love and acceptance, and people persecute me for that.

 

And here are some random quotes from Egoeimi: I’m in bold.

  

 

Experimental Observations Only Yes, Egoeimi. And since creationism cannot be proven by experimentation, what exactly are you trying to say?
    ”Some lame defenders of evolutionism claim that one needs a degree in biology to refute the origins of life by chance.
    All evolutionists need to do is demonstrate how life can naturally come from non-life. Ambiogenesis is not evolution. Get it through your head! That’s why I’ve always said that God created life, and then let the living organisms evolve into the organisms we see today. But only experimental observations please. Leave your imaginations and dreams at the door.” Yes, Egoeimi. Leave your daydreams at the door.

Patrick D. McGuire, From an amazon.com review of ‘Not by Chance: Shattering the Modern Theory of Evolution’ by Lee M. Spetner

The Big Bang and Guano
    ”On July 12, an abandoned ranger headquarters at Tahquamenon Falls State Park blew sky-high, sending debris a hundred feet into the atmosphere and alarming campers fourteen miles away.
    
    The explosion now has been traced to bat manure that for decades had been generating methane gas until in mid-July it became highly volatile and – kaboom!
    
    Scientists believe that a similar cataclysm 15 billion years ago gave us the beginnings of the universe, though even scientists cannot account for those early bats, There are possible explanations for how the bat evolved. It was a land mammal to start off with. Mutation created a gene for webbed fingers. This gene got enhanced over millions of years and now code for the wings you see today. and for those of a religious disposition a world created by bat dung is too depressing to contemplate.” You know, no one ever said the world was created by bat dung. What is this argument trying to say?

‘The American Spectator’, Sept. 1993, pp. 8,9

 

 

Ego-eimi, are you still trying to say that you have your own opinions? This random quoting makes you look:

a) too lazy to formulate your own arguments

b) lack the language to formulate your own arguments

c) love the copy and paste function or

d) all of the above